Here’s a tweetversation that started off nowhere and then went somewhere really interesting. And I say that not only because I got involved and Ghostcrawler replied to something I said. Well, OK, primarily because of that.
(UPDATE 12/19: This has turned into one of the longest conversations GC has been engaged in thus far in his young tweexistence. I’ve added a ton of new tweets to the exchange since originally posting this on 12/18; everything below is kind-of in order from oldest to newest, though I’ve tried to group related tweets together where I could.)
@melolzz We don't put much stock in "I don't even play X and I think they need buffs." Not necessary to make a good argument.
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Greg Street (@Ghostcrawler) December 18, 2012@SamSykesSwears Rogues have been low popularity since around the time DKs existed, through high DPS / PvP rep and low.
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Greg Street (@Ghostcrawler) December 18, 2012@SvelteKumquat I think (for many) the rogue fantasy is striking unseen before the victim can respond. That's not say the mage fantasy IMO.
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Greg Street (@Ghostcrawler) December 18, 2012@Covus The broader discussion we were having is why rogues have been at low pop for some time (even when they were great at PvP).
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Greg Street (@Ghostcrawler) December 19, 2012@marcey90954672 Check out the whole discussion. Rogue pop has been low since LK. That suggests it isn't recent PvP or talent changes.
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Greg Street (@Ghostcrawler) December 19, 2012@jjones186 Yeah, I agree this could very well be a factor.
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Greg Street (@Ghostcrawler) December 19, 2012@EvilAipac Rogue pop has been low for years. Giving them legendaries (!) provided a small bump that is now past.
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Greg Street (@Ghostcrawler) December 19, 2012@Evilnihil Oh, I suspect we did somewhere along the way. We just don't believe fixing it is as simple as many players imply.
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Greg Street (@Ghostcrawler) December 19, 2012
.@Aulper7 It's not at all an indicator of balance. It often is an indicator of fun, which is a problem. ("Fun" doesn't just mean rotation.)
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Greg Street (@Ghostcrawler) December 19, 2012@hawke_CR I respectfully disagree. That's only an issue for the world first crowd. Our encounters tend to be pretty forgiving of errors.
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Greg Street (@Ghostcrawler) December 19, 2012
@DeadMurloc It's a design problem if players aren't playing a class because it isn't fun. We want all the classes to get played.
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Greg Street (@Ghostcrawler) December 19, 2012@Gnomerix I know, but that was my point - even when they were undeniably awful, they were popular. (Not all about the #s.)
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Greg Street (@Ghostcrawler) December 19, 2012
@data02 No. Designers generally focus on making the game fun and hope that translates to business success.
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Greg Street (@Ghostcrawler) December 19, 2012
A few early thoughts on this exchange (UPDATE 12/19: Most of these stem from the earliest tweets on 12/18, so they may feel a little stale given how the convo evolved with tweets that posted the next day):
- I didn’t know that rogue popularity entered a valley with the introduction of Death Knights. I *started* playing WoW when DKs came out, so my historical awareness is limited on this front. I see plenty of arguments that feral druids and warriors (and, more recently, windwalker monks) are “too similar” to rogues, but rarely do I see that accusation flung in the direction of DKs. (UPDATE 12/19: As noted later in the tweetscussion, hybridization also got a big boost around the time DKs came into being; this seems like a more plausible trigger for the dip to me.)
- Ghostcrawler isn’t claiming that *he* believes rogue population dips whenever their ganking abilities dip. Just that it’s a theory. He may just be trying to encourage a bit of conversation by making the statement. For me, though, the statement made me self-ask something I hadn’t asked myself before: Are rogue population trends so far in Pandaria different depending on whether you play on a PvP or PvE server (and are thus more/less likely to take part in, or be a victim of, world PvP)? I don’t think Cynwise’s numbers — the ones that triggered some recent ranting over whether the rogue class is “dying” – explore this distinction.
- My fantasy of a rogue is indeed of striking unseen before a victim can respond. But because PvP makes me pee my pants, I mostly do that when questing/leveling — and still love the feeling of control and power I get from stealthing up on a mob and getting off an opener before it knows I’m there, even though the thing is being told what to do by a computer program rather than a human player. This is also the reason why I almost never feel *less* like a rogue than when I’m raiding.But all of that has nothing to do with the theory GC suggested, so I’m unaffected by any potential trends that changes our gankability would bring about. I’m also skeptical that it’s some major overarching driver of rogue population numbers, if for no other reason than that I feel a pretty small number of players participate in world PvP to begin with. Unless the perception of weakness is enough to keep people away, even though they’d never have taken part in the activities that rogues are perceived to be weak in.
Whatchoothink?
He has a point, many people just use rogues to gank.
For others like myself (clearly a minority) it is their main class..
Rogue’s have always been pretty good 1v1, you open from stealth, you should have the advantage and not just of surprise but a slight angling in your favour of how the fight will go due to your picking the moment, your opener and trying to twist the battle your way from the start.
The opponent then has to recover and turn the tables on you, which should be hard for them because everytime they try, you turn it back on them.by applying pressure and more control. Thus unless really unlucky, your cooldowns are spent or the opponent is much better geared/skilled than you the result should be in favour an eventual rogue win discounting some rng, vanish failing… etc.
Is this scenario the case right now?
Talking 1v1, unless specced for Prep, the answer is just no.
So yes those fair weather players might drop the class as it isn’t obviously going to be a win if your geared. Blizzard did a nice job of making fights harder/longer, but I think the old scenario of a rogue in stealth having the upper hand and out of stealth the pponent having the upper hand has shifted to rogue in stealth equal normal, rogue out of stealth opponent has
a much bigger advantage.
World pvp has no bearing on it really, on my pve server the 3 pure rogues players still play rogues as mains, on my old pvp server some of the rogues have gone but they are all playing other classes this arena season. That should say everything really.
Lastly its no secret that its hard to play the class right now, it seems to scale well but still lacks a certain punch, what GC fails to understand is that there is a flavour of the month and rogues far and away are not it atm.
FYI Your fantasy of a rogue is a bit like mine, except mine would have the traditional rpg skill of assassinate… this clearly would infuriate 99% of anyone else on WoW however.
“I respectfully disagree. That’s only an issue for the world first crowd. Our encounters tend to be pretty forgiving of errors.”
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
/wipes away a tear
/pauses
/thinks about the times when her guild was starting Dragon Soul, then goes and weeps in a corner
Pretty sure weeping in a corner during a raid fight counts as an error.