Posts Tagged ‘fun’

I don’t think of myself as a person who has very strong opinions about the rogue class. I’m probably wrong about that.

I started this blog to inform. Not just you guys, but also myself — I actively use my site to look back on recent class changes and to remind myself of what Ghostcrawler and other designers have said about rogues over the past year. It’s surprised me how many times I’ve written rants — and how long they’ve been.

So when the superific Subtlety lover Haileaus started a new thread in WoW’s rogue class forum asking people to talk about their rogue experiences in the context of the next expansion, my only thought was: Ooh, this’ll be cool to report on. I wonder what people will say?

It took some prodding from Hail for me to realize that maybe it’d be helpful and constructive of me if I said some stuff, too.

So. Here’s what I posted. The quoted bits are the questions that Hail set forth in the thread’s original post to help give people structure for their feedback (an outstanding idea). If any of this confuses you, infuriates you or raises your curiosity, fire away in the comments or — preferably — over in that forum thread, which has become a really nice collection point for class feedback.


What is your ideal, glorified, rogue? This one can be a bit unrealistic, and doesn’t have to be one answer (You could, for instance, say 3 – 1 per spec), but basically, if you had a dream you were the perfect OP rogue, what would it be like?

Basically, Assassin’s Creed. Can’t remotely work in the context of an MMO, but the one-shot kill, the perpetual ability to deceive and misdirect, the grappling hook, the ability to weave through enemy territory by means other than simply hitting a stealth button and walking carefully. Ultimate mobility, control, burst and secrecy.


How do you feel about the current damage distribution (where the bulk of your damage comes from) for each spec? What would you like it to be like? Please make note of whether this is in PvE or PvP.

I heard a rumor that a lot of people have posted in this thread complaining about passive damage in PvE. I agree with that, but not because I’m much of a fan of seeing big numbers as a direct result of mashing buttons: If I know my target’s gonna lose 25% of its health in the next five seconds, it doesn’t matter a whole lot to me whether that’s 5% per second or 2%/2%/17%/2%/2%. The reason I dislike huge passive damage amounts is that it shrinks the gap between those who really put a lot of time and effort into playing their class better and those who don’t.

I haven’t got a clue what sort of passive-vs.-active damage ratio we need to have in order to make that “skill gap” something I’m happy with. (Heck, I’m not even sure what that ratio is now, so maybe my entire argument here is moot.) And I feel kinda douchey even saying this, because I realize it’s sort of an elitist thing to say. But if you’re gonna learn how to play your class/spec optimally, and if you’re gonna practice to ensure that you follow through on what you’ve learned, I think you should be rewarded by doing crazy-huge better on DPS charts than a person who only has the basics down.


What are your thoughts on each spec’s rotation?

They all exist. :) I’ve tended to think of rotations as inevitable means to an end. I’m used to the maintain-this, build-with-this, finish-with-this approach, and I’m used to that approach being punctuated by the use of major cooldowns. Do I like it? Meh. Do I dislike it? Meh. It’s the way it is, the way it’s been, and has never been what I love or dislike most about playing the class.


If you could pitch just one idea to the devs, what would it be?

Find a way to give us a Grappling Hook ability that allows us to teleport to any location — horizontally or vertically — within, say, 20 yards or so that’s within our line of sight. Yknow, without that being ridiculously imbalanced in PvP. :)


What is your favorite part about your rogue in MoP, and what has been your favorite historically?

How stealth (plus speed) gives me the ability to choose my battles and get where I want to go without having to take the long way around.


Least favorite?

How visually messy raid fights get from the perspective of a melee DPS. It is hard to see much of anything that’s going on around me due to all the visual effects.


What should rogues be able to do better than every other class/melee?

Avoid damage, move quickly and frustrate the enemy.


What should rogues be able to do worse than every other class/melee?

Self-heal and deal sustained single-target damage outside of a PvE raiding context.


What do you think about the class’s role in PvE/PvP? If you would like to see it change, in what direction?

It’s not our role in PvE that I have a problem with; what makes me unhappy sometimes is how uninteresting it can feel to be a melee DPS. This is entirely a personal preference, but I’ve never been happier in a raid fight than when I’ve felt I have brought something special to my group that helped them win. I haven’t had a chance to even raid outside of LFR this expansion, but in Cata, I loved being a soaker on heroic Morchok, and I loved being in the Ultraxion rotation as a person who popped Cloak every third Twilight to keep the raid alive.

My DPS rotation is a constant; it’s always there, and it always will be, and my DPS potential will always be a number. The tools in my belt that can make or break my raid group on a particular fight are what form the memories that stick with me as a WoW player.


What that rogues used to have do you miss?

Swirly b— oh. Right.


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The extraordinary Cynwise published his latest class distribution numbers over the weekend; let’s take a quick look at the rogue bits.

I very much recommend reading Cynwise’s summary of the new data, in which he takes snapshots of various class-population measurements on U.S./EU servers at the start of Patch 5.3 and compares them to earlier patches (and expansions). There are oodles of charts and lots of numbers and it’s all very overwhelming for a former English major like me, but there are several key takeaway points worth noting:

  • At the start of Patch 5.3, 6.2% of toons at max level were rogues. That’s up from 5.8% at the start of Patch 5.2, but still the lowest percentage of any class other than monks.
  • Not including monks, rogues were the least-popular class in heroic raids and the second-least-popular class in competitive arena (after hunters). It may be that the PvP overbuffing we got for Patch 5.2 wasn’t around long enough to seriously alter rogue representation in arena, although it does look like the proportion of arena players who were rogues did increase quite a bit. (It’s just that the percentage was so low to begin with that increasing the proportion “quite a bit” still wasn’t enough to make them objectively “popular.”)
  • Despite their low overall representation, rogue popularity at endgame grew more than any other class except monks during Patch 5.2. The number of level-90 rogues jumped 32%. (They just appear not to be finding their way into heroic raids or arena as frequently as other classes.)
  • The total number of rogue toons in the game (across all levels) dropped during Patch 5.2. The drop was slight — only about 1% — but rogues were the only class who saw a reduction in total toon number between the start of Patch 5.2 and the start of Patch 5.3.

And then there’s this (quoting Cynwise):

At all levels, there are more Rogues than Monks, Warlocks or Shaman. There are almost as many Rogues as there are Priests! But Rogues are not making it to level 90. […]

Some of this might be due to Rogue populations swelling in late Cataclysm for the legendary daggers. A large number of leveling PvP rogues might also account for it? I’m sure that the Rogue community will have much greater insight than I over it.

But right now, Warriors are behind the other hybrids by a little, and Rogues are behind the other pure DPS classes by a lot.


Rogues are more popular than they seem but are struggling to make it to the endgame. Those Rogues who make it to the endgame can do well, but so few of them do compared to everyone else that there’s something abnormal with them. Rogues are less likely to experience Pandaria than any other class, and that is worth investigating.

To illustrate his point, Cynwise showed us this chart:

It shows that, compared to all other classes, people are much less likely to finish leveling a rogue. This made me wonder: Where the heck are they “stopping,” and why?


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Shuriken Toss in action.WoW Insider’s Mathew Rossi knows how to write a sexy headline. “Are rogues a dying class?” is the tantalizing title of a new article posted on Dec. 10 that explores a lovely series of spreadsheets and graphs by Cynwise on Warcraft’s current class population numbers. In it, Rossi writes:

Rogues went from 7.67% of max level at patch 5.0.4, the pre-Mists of Pandaria patch, to 5.51% of max level as of patch 5.1, a drop of over 2%. This is at a time when most other classes either held steady (Paladins, Druids, DK’s and Hunters all held at about even with their Cataclysm and patch 5.0.4 numbers), went up (Warriors saw a jump from 9.25% at max level to 10.14% between 5.0.4 and 5.1, while Warlocks went up from 6.7% to 7%) or saw slight declines (Shamans, Priests and Mages all saw slight declines). By comparison, the rogue decline becomes stark.

So, where have all the rogues gone?


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The podcast mentioned below is a reference to GC’s Dec. 5 interview on All Things Azeroth, which I’ll write more about below these tweets.



A smattering of rogue players went a little wacky on the WoW forums when GC made his comment about there being fewer rogues than Ret pallies, as though he had made the statement to mean… well, anything at all in relation to rogues, really. In actuality, GC was responding to a tongue-in-cheek question about why he hates paladins so much.

Here’s the full quote:

The paladin thing is really funny — I honestly think it is just because there are so many freaking paladins out there. At times, probably right now, there are more Retribution paladins than there are rogues. So, anytime you do anything to the paladin class, there’s this enormous uprising, because they feel like they’re being picked on, even though they’re actually the majority of players out there. And I think, since then, it’s just kind of become a running joke that Ghostcrawler plays a mage and hates paladins. Neither of which is true.

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@ESolett: “@Ghostcrawler Be honest. Play a rogue at 90 and tell me it’s fun. I dare you.”

@Ghostcrawler: “@ESolett if I did find it fun, you’d just tell me I was wrong I think.”

Twitterized 11/18/2012

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@ESolett: “@Ghostcrawler Rogues don’t find your game and many are going to quit if they don’t see good changes in 5.1. Stop telling us what we find fun”

@Ghostcrawler: “.@ESolett What if I tell you what I find fun and you tell me what you find fun & everyone stops trying to be the voice of the community? :)”

@twbrien: “@Ghostcrawler @ESolett … We tried that. You ignored us for an entire beta cycle. Fess up and fix it.”

@Ghostcrawler: “@twbrien As soon as you say “we” and “us” then you’re kind of missing my point.”

@zakkar484: “@Ghostcrawler @twbrien … what to listen to, consciuously or not. You reap the results of that (horrible PVP, constant whines).”

@Ghostcrawler: “@zakkar484 I read the role and PvP forums regularly. Feedback is always valuable. It just doesn’t always result in immediate change.”

Twitterized 10/24/2012

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Daxxarri stopped into the WoW rogue forum on Oct. 5 for a little back-and-forth with players on how the rogue class is playing in 5.0.4. He started off responding to a post that monks and rogues are similar because they both “consume singular resources” for their abilities.

While true, the abilities Monks use to generate Chi are not very damaging, while the strikes a Rogue uses to create combo points are core damage abilities. Monks need Chi to execute bread and butter damage abilities at all. It’s not a very good direct comparison. One should always be careful when comparing how one class’s abilities work versus another to take into account all the variables.

Then later, in response to a post about how blues don’t appear in the rogue forum:

Class forums are places where we want players talking to players, but I heard you guys were a little frustrated. I wanted to drop by and say hi, and I saw the comparison with Monks. That kind of false side-by-side comparison is something I like to nip in the bud. It creates un-justified class jealousy, y’know?

Better to consider your class mechanics within the context of your class mechanics instead.

And a little later in the thread:

To be fair, I remain impartial in that I always have to (and want to) take the broad view when considering class issues. I also know that you guys are frustrated, but the hard truth is that, even before Legendary weapon hijinks, Rogues needed some adjustment.

Still, we want every class to feel fun and satisfying to play, and I wanted to drop by and find out some specifics regarding why you guys are sad.

Edit: Please don’t exaggerate the issues, by the way. It’s much easier to relay information when I’m not trying to separate fact from fiction.

Daxxarri extended the post limit and let the discussion continue for about a week, before locking things up at post #739 with:

I don’t have anything specific to share just yet, but I want to thank you all for taking the time to share your feelings in the thread.

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